| Author | Message | |||
     Ryan Somebody |
I believe the biproducts of electrolysis (as in the example on your site) are highly flammable, correct? I was wondering if there is any way to make a hydrogen/oxygen burner, or perhaps modify a coleman camping stove to run on the mixture. I assume the gasses would need to be compressed, and I was just wondering if this is theoretically possible. Also, what is an efficient way to vent the gas off the electrodes and produce as much of it as possible? I have experimented with different types of electrodes and I believe that long electrodes are most efficient (they have a larger surface area). The electrode's shape doesn't really matter does it? I would like to have two rectangular carbon bars attached parralel to the bottom of a fishtank, a sealed off acrylic top , and have a copper pipe to vent the gases. I have a hunch that having the electrodes perpindicular to the vent will help the gasses escape as they rise. If the burner is too difficult an idea than perhaps a heater of sorts. The ideal power source would be a series of solar panels and/or a lead acid battery.  Oh yes, in my open version of the electrolysis (in a plastic cup) myself and several of my friends could smell something similar to chlorine.... Is this the gasses or the carbon? I would like to see more about this topic on your web page! Thanks Alot! | |||
| Simon Quellen Field (Sfield) |
You don't want to collect both the oxygen and the hydrogen in the same container. Especially under pressure. The mixture is highly explosive. Instead, collect each gas in a separate tube.  The rate of gas evolution depends on the current. You may have used salt in your cell to increase the current by making the water more conductive. Salt water separates the salt at the same time it separates the water. Salt is sodium and chlorine. The chlorine you may have smelled (if you used tap water that was chlorinated, you may have smelled that as well). The sodium reacts immediately with water to produce hydrogen and sodium hydroxide (lye). Fortunately, the sodium's hydrogen is produced at the same electrode as the water's hydrogen. You can feed the hydrogen into a bunsen burner to burn in air, or into the type of burner used for oxy-acetylene torches, that has two hoses, one for the oxygen, and the other for the gas that will burn (hydrogen in our case, acetylene normally). | |||
| Ryan Somebody |
The water was tap, so it was chlorinated and probably contained salt. I saturated a cup of water with salt and tried the experiment again. I couldn't believe it! The whole operation seemed to be working about 4 or 5 times faster. After 2 minutes all I had was a cup of chlorine; the sodium really speeds up the process. I am having a hard time getting the carbon rod out of the D-Cell battery, how did you get the metal off the outside? I was also wondering if I could use copper or aluminum rods in place of the carbon? What area do the electrodes affect, the space between them or the entire container? And lastly, should I opt for a higher voltage or more amps? So far everything is working great! I'm going to post my version of the gauss rifle on the forum and my website soon. P.S. Is there any way to isolate sodium through electrolysis? I'm guessing it only seperates in liquid form so I was wondering if I could use a liquid that it is soluble in (alchohol? glycerin?) but does not react with so I could boil the liquid off later. Just a thought. Any thoughts on where to get a bunsen burner? I will probably be able to get one from my school (they discontinued the use of them for safety reasons) Thank you, and when is/has your book been released? | |||
| Simon Quellen Field (Sfield) |
I use a pair of wire-cutters to open the metal casing on the battery. Don't cut yourself on the sharp metal. Hardware stores sell propane torches that work great as replacements for bunsen burners. You can probably use the torch head with hydrogen. A propane camp stove might also work. You may have to adjust the air intake, to get less air, or more air. You can use metal rods instead of carbon, but one will erode and plate onto the other, and the water will get blue if there is copper present. Sodium is produced by the electrolysis of molten salt in the absence of air. I'll be doing a project on how to do it in your kitchen one of these days, using a propane torch and some copper plumbing parts. The book will come out in paper form in October. The gas production depends on the current. The current depends on the voltage and the resistance. This is called Ohms Law. voltage = current times resistance current = voltage divided by resistance resistance = voltage divided by current So, if you are using 9 volts, and the resistance is 100 ohms, you have 0.09 amperes of current. If you want more current, you can do two things. You can raise the voltage, or you can lower the resistance. You have already seen the effects of lowering the resistance. When you added salt to the water, the water became a better conductor (less resistance). The current went up, and you saw more gas production. At some point, the current becomes high enough to heat the water. Then you get water vapor in the gas, which you will have to let condense out. | |||
| Ryan Somebody |
Is it safe to use a 6v/12v 1 amp trickle charger as a power source? | |||
| Simon Quellen Field (Sfield) |
"Safe" is all about how you use it. You are producing an explosive mixture of hydrogen and oxygen. In my original toy, the amount that can be made is quite small. You are talking about making amounts large enough to be lethal. You should not do it indoors, and you should avoid any unintentional sparks that would cause it to explode when you were unprepared. Scaling up the device is inherently dangerous, and I will not make any statements about something being safe when I am not there to inspect it. The trickle charger uses 120 volts AC from the power grid. Playing with that near a bucket of saltwater is probably not something I would do myself. | |||
| yip |
ahh, kipp's apparatus was one of those.. last time i showed electrolysis i used a transparant garden hose. bent it to a U and put balloons with elastics on the tops. put salt in the water you fill the hose halfway with. than apply electricity stick the + and - needles trough the hose on each side of the downward bend and you see left hydrgen and on the richt oxygen bubbles rising to fill the balloons. but, as said, be carefull, those gasses together explode. as we all know only 1/5 of the air that we breathe is oxigen that burns. i now forgot but there is 1 simple way to extract it out of the air without going to industrial.. was it vacuum diffusing? interesting also! | |||
| Ryan Somebody |
I've come up with a fairly safe and reliable way to electrolysis. I assume I need a liscense to sell the kit I came up with (and possibly a patent?) If so do you know where I could obtain a liscense? I was only thinking of selling them on eBay. I've taken many failsaves in the design (like valves to vent off the pressure if nescessary). Thanks for the help- I have so many opportunities that I have missed and I would like to finally fullfill one. Still can't wait to see that railgun project (I also was able to make some sodium! I found some calcium chloride). Keep up the great work! | |||
| Simon Quellen Field (Sfield) |
You don't need a license to sell things on eBay. But a spell checker would help. ;-) Tell the folks how you made sodium, and what you used the calcium chloride for. Presumably it was to lower the melting point from 804 degrees Celsius to the neighborhood of 600 degrees, as in the Downs process. Note that this means you don't get pure sodium, but a mixture of sodium and calcium. Did you use a Downs cell to keep the sodium from oxidizing, or did you come up with another solution? | |||
| Ryan Somebody |
The device I want to sell is for the electrolysis of water. The method I made to get sodium was rather crude but worked (suprisingly). The result was of a low grade of course. I didn't know much about Downs cells but I still took steps to prevent oxidization. I heated a mixture of NaCl (table salt) and CaCl2 (calcium chloride- from chemistry set) to its melting point in an old crucible my dad had with his torch. I lowered in two carbon rods (suspended from copper wire) and placed a steel washer blank over the whole setup to keep out SOME air. The sodium (and calcium too apparently) collected on the cathode. When I felt I had a fair amount I pulled the cathode and shook it off inside an aluminum tube. I let this cool for about a second or two then proceeded to pour on mineral oils to keep out oxygen. I put some of the chips of sodium in a petri dish of water and they bounced around. I think I may have found the simplest version of your steam boat! My question is how does pure sodium react? Is it supposed to burn? I would like to see any ideas you have on a Downs Cell but my washer was a pretty close fit to the molten mixture. I used an old Hawker SLA battery I had lying around (8 Ah, I think it cranked at 250 amps once....) and had 2 dehumidifiers running in close proximity (doubt that helped). And yes, I used the calcium chloride to lower the melting temperature (though I could use plain NaCl if I used more Oxygen with my torch...) I will take pictures if I ever do it again. By the way- my science teacher told me of an incident where a teacher put a brick of pure sodium in a garbage can of water resulting in many casualties. Have you heard of this incident? Anyway, thank you. | |||
| Anonymous |
Another easy way of electrolyisis is to use only two pencils sharpened at both ends. Using a 9 volts battery and attaching two wires from the two (+ and -) terminals to the graphite at the top of two seperate pencil it is possible to obtain hydrogen and a hydro chlorine compound. I am wondering what could be done to produce pure hydrogen and water. | |||
| Simon Quellen Field (Sfield) |
In pure water you would get hydrogen and oxygen. In salty water, you also get some chlorine gas, but the reaction goes faster because there is less resistance, and thus more current. Using mechanical pencil leads will give you even more current, since there is more surface exposed. Instead of salt, you can add vinegar to reduce the resistance, and prevent the production of chlorine gas. | |||
| skeletonheads |
Hey all! Want to speed up the electrolysis process without using salt? Take an old 22v transformer from an electric scooter or anything, and use it on the hydrogen bomb. From my experience of using salt, it causes the water at the top of the water to fizz and get water on the sparker. Also, if you want to build an easier h-bomb and don't care about seeing the explosion, build it out of pvs peices from home depot. | |||
| Anonymous |
How do you tell what you get from electrolisis with diffrent compounds? Im thinking of trying the blowtorch idea on some epson salt (MgSO4) but im not shure what I would get. Would I get magnesium oxide and sulfur or magnesium and a sulfate (might react with hydrogen in the air to form sulfuric acid) or would I get oxogen and a mixture of magnesium and sulfur? How do you tell what is negitivly charged and what is positivly charged? | |||
| Simon Quellen Field (Sfield) |
There is a lot going on under the surface, but the end products are still hydrogen and oxygen. What the salts add are charge carriers, making the liquid more conductive. This makes more gas, and uses up the batteries faster. Vinegar is my favorite thing to add in order to improve the rate of gas production. It is easy to clean up. Get yourself a first year chemistry book. It will teach you about what is going on in the various electrolysis reactions. | |||
| Anonymous |
Im not talking about using water in this Im talking about how Ryan used a torch to do electrolisis on the salt to get pure sodium (Reread my post). I was wondering what I would get if I did the same proscess on some epson salt (MgSO4) instead of table salt. There is no water involved and the salt contains oxogen but not hydrogen. (Im a diffrent person than the people that have been posting so far) | |||
| Simon Quellen Field (Sfield) |
The magnesium will plate onto one electrode. This is how aluminum and magnesium are produced commercially. You will still want to keep air away from the hot magnesium. The other electrode will produce sulfur trioxide gas, which is not pleasant (it makes sulfuric acid when it contacts water or moist membranes in the eyes, nose, or lungs). | |||
| Anonymous |
So if I wanted to produce magnesium I could have it in a closed airtight container that has all of its air pumped out of it and then let the sulfur trioxide build up but then what? I cant really do this becouse I cant despose of the gas that easaly (What are all those bottles in your garage? heh) I cant throw it away and I cant release it becouse its forms sulfuric acid. Can I break down the sulfur trioxide into sulfur and oxogen? | |||
| Anonymous |
If I supercooled (Decompression of a liquid gas to cool it?) it so it condenses could I perform electrolysis again or would it not work? | |||
| Anonymous |
Doh silly me, a base will react with the acid. I could use baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) and that would form sodium sulfate (a salt) and carbon dioxide. Then I could break down the sodium sulfate using electrolysis and I would get sodium and sulfur. Am I correct? | |||
| Simon Quellen Field (Sfield) |
It is really easy to get rid of something as reactive as sulfur trioxide. Since it is so reactive, you can easily bubble the gas through a solution of baking soda to make sodium sulfate and carbon dioxide, neither of which is particularly dangerous. Breaking down sodium sulfate gives you sodium and sulfur trioxide. As a method for obtaining magnesium, this is very expensive. Magnesium is made in large batches, where the cost of heating that cheap starting materials is reduced because the surface to volume ratio goes down as the volume increases, and that reduces heat losses. Further, the plants are usually located where electricity is cheap, and the amount of electricity used brings the cost down. Buying scrap magnesium will be much cheaper than making it from epsom salts. Buying sodium or potassium is a different story, since there is no big retail commercial use for the raw metals. | |||
| Anonymous |
What do you get potassium from? The stuff I know of only has traces of potassium in it. The only two salts that I know are common is table salt and epsom salt. (This is all so interesting Im taking physics next year in school I cant wait to get into chemistry) | |||
| Simon Quellen Field (Sfield) |
Salt substitutes are mostly potassium chloride. Potassium iodide is easy to come by, as is potassium hydroxide. Potassium chloride and sulfate are used in fertilizers. | |||
| Anonymous |
Hey I was looking at the posts up there and I was wondering why you get lye if it is so reactive with water. Dont you get like sodium oxide or something? | |||
| Simon Quellen Field (Sfield) |
What do you think happens when sodium oxide is put into water? Hint: calcium oxide make calcium hydroxide when put into water. When sodium metal is put into water, the sodium replaces one of the hydrogens in the water, and the hydrogen bubbles out of the water. One way of thinking about this reaction is that water can look like an acid or a base, depending on how acidic or basic is the compound you are reacting with it. Sodium is so basic that water looks like an acid. If you have a strong acid like HCl (hydrogen chloride, or hydrochloric acid), and you place a metal like aluminum or zinc into it, the metal replaces the hydrogen, which bubbles out of the solution. Something similar is going on with sodium and water. | |||
| Anonymous |
But what Im saying is that the internet says that sodium hydroxide is reactive with water and what your saying is that sodium is reactive with water to produce sodium hydroxide. So if sodium combines with water to form sodium hydroxide why is it still reactive with water? Wouldnt it go through 2 reactions? | |||
| Simon Quellen Field (Sfield) |
When lye dissolves in water, it liberates heat. Other than that, there's nothing special. | |||
| Anonymous |
Hey I was expirimenting with plating diffrent things onto eachother, and the water CONGEALED. It was neat the bubbles were getting stuck in this gellowy substance. I was plating aluminum foil onto another sheet of aluminum, did the aluminum react with the water? I would guess it made aluminum hydroxide but Im an ameture (Cant wait to take chemistry next year :-D ). | |||
| Anonymous |
Ahh how am I suppost to handle this stuff? (Much less despose of it) Its insoluable in water, highly caustic and its a gel so I cant pour it easaly. Im worried that if I try alchohol or oil as a solute and acid to neutralise it the reaction will set the solute on fire! Its in a plastic container right now. (very thick 1/5 inch maybe) | |||
| Simon Quellen Field (Sfield) |
You can try neutralizing it with something mild, such as vinegar. Or you can just call the same people you call when you want to dispose of used motor oil, old car batteries and such, and let them dispose of it for you. | |||
| Skaterfool |
To speed the electrolisys proscess can a 24 Volt 800mA DC transformer be used on it? and does the electrical shock still exist even if the transformer is grounded? and finally how do you grow Amoebas? Thanx for your help | |||
| Anonymous |
Well its gone now... Just had to be careful. Its in two sealed containers one with 1/5 inch of plastic and the outer one 1/4 inch (my mothers leftover makeup bottles to the rescue ;D ), so its not going anywhere anytime soon. I put all the tools I used in a citric acid/water solution. I knew that electrolysis could be used to break down compounds but I didn’t know you could have a synthesis reaction with two things that under normal circumstances don’t combine. You can still be shocked even if the transformer is grounded, just don't touch the bare wires, 24 volts will give you a pritty good shock. | |||
| Skaterfool |
oh, yeahh, bout will it speed up the process or does it have to be a battery? and do you need any special materials to grow and amoeba? | |||
| Simon Quellen Field (Sfield) |
What is important about electrolysis is the current. Read what I said above about current, voltage, and Ohm's Law. A good resource for amoeba culture is here. | |||
| Mark Blurg |
I was electroplating copper, and blue powder started to sink to the bottom. I put some of this powder in HCl and it bubbled and turned black. Can you tell me what the blue powder is and what the black powder is? Also can you tell me why this happens? I've done this with other metals such as iron or aluminum but didn't get this powder. (with the iron I got an almost red powder but not as much as with copper, does that deal with the conductivity of the metal?) well that's enough questions for one post. ppl can e-mail me with suggestions answers comments or questions at m_gobes@yahoo.com if you want | |||
| Anonymous |
I did the electrolysis with water and some salt and after a few days of the sulotion sitting around in a ceramic cup it turned green and is now turning blue. Does anyone know why it did that? Also, what is sodium silicoaluminate. I'm guessing it has sodium, silicon and aluminum in it. | |||
| Simon Quellen Field (Sfield) |
It is difficult to tell which copper compounds are created in your mixture from a description of the color. Copper chlorides and sulfates are likely. Sodium silicoaluminate is a Zeolite, made from sodium silicate and aluminum. Sodium silicate is also known as water glass, or egg keep. It is used to coat eggs to prevent oxidative decay. Zeolites are widely used in chemistry and food production, as ion exchange media, and as anti-caking additives in table salt and grated cheese. They have huge amounts of surface area, and make good catalysts and dessicants. Silicates are one of the most common types of minerals in the earth's crust, and form most of what we know as dirt. You've been eating them since you were born. | |||
| Anonymous |
Do you know of any more expiraments with electricity and other liquids? And, have you everr heard of a copper wire being coated with another metal and then insolated because on the positive end of my terminal the wire that was in the solution looks oxidized and frayed but just above that the wire looks like a solid piece of wire. | |||
| Anonymous |
Hey Simon and friends... I'm going to order some carbon-fiber fabric and try using that as an electrode for H20 Electrolysis. Hopefully it will conduct electricity well. For some reason that sounds like the perfect electrode to me, since it can have quite a large surface area (since I can fold it up etc). I'm still not sure what I'll use for a diaphragm yet, I'll probably start out with something high-tech like a sponge... :-) Oh yeah I'm building a new little test rig for electrolysis out of Acrylic, so I can use different electrodes/diaphragms/electrolytes. I haven't been doing anything science-related things for a while, but I'm taking chemistry this year so that will be interesting. I have 2 SLA batteries as a power source right now and I'm probably going to get another two, and a better HV transformer to fool around with. If I had the money I would get a nice variable AC power supply and rectify it to DC but oh well. If everything goes well I'm going to make a little mini-website about my electrolysis adventures. | |||
| Andrew |
I'm not sure that your carbon-fiber fabric stuff will conduct electricity. Since it was probably not meant to, i'd suppose that it would be coated with something. | |||
| Anonymous |
Yeah I thought of that too, but to my surprise some carbon-fiber wrapped arrows I bought conducted electricity decently, and I even used some as electrodes. I already ordered the carbon fiber, and if I find it is coated in some non-conductive glue I can probably burn it off. | |||
| Anonymous |
Does increased electrode surface area always equal increased current draw? I tried using some Aluminum fencing material, and that sped up the whole process much faster than carbon rods (using a 6v lantern battery). I'll do alot more experimenting with this once my little setup is done. My biggest problem is trying to design something that will produce pressurized Hydrogen. I envisioned being able to take the Hydrogen right from the system and fill up some kind of tank with it- but it seems alot simpler to use some kind of compressor. Do you know of any designs that work this way? Am I correct in thinking the electrodes will draw much more current for the added pressure? This isn't something I would ever build, just something I would like to know how to design. | |||
| Simon Quellen Field (Sfield) |
The trouble with using aluminum is that it gets used up. You get aluminum hydroxide solution, and one of the electrodes corrodes. The current depends on the voltage and the resistance (Ohm's Law). The voltage can be raised to get more current, or the resistance can be lowered by having more surface area, or a more conductive electrolyte. It takes energy to pressurize a gas. The energy can come from the electrolyzing power source (in which case you will see a reduction in the efficiency of electrolysis that corresponds to the energy used to pressurize the gas) or from a second system, such as a compressor. Due to losses in the compressor, it sounds to me like the simpler method will be more efficient, but you will want to experiment before accepting that conjecture. | |||
| Anonymous |
i have a simple night-light candle lantern.Can i adapt it and pipe hydrogen into it to create a flame without it exploding? | |||
| Murat |
hi I have read your experiments about electrolysis and I did some experiments by using 12v batteries. I have tried salt and other things but the reaction was not fast enough. Therefore. I bought an inverter ( that invert 12v DC to 230v AC ), and made an electrical circuit to invert that 230v AC to 300v DC. Now I have a high Dc voltage but I have a problem.! The problem is about short circuit. When I start device it makes short circuit. Is there anyone that would solve my problem ---I am learning your language nowadays so maybe you don't understand what I mean... e-mail: toptasm@itu.edu.tr | |||
| Simon Quellen Field (Sfield) |
Ohm's Law is such a simple thing. It is amazing that there are people who can build circuits, but who forget Ohm's Law. A centimeter of salt water has a resistance of less than 10 ohms. Ohm's Law says the current is equal to the voltage divided by the resistance. You have three hundred volts, divided by less than 10. You will be drawing over 30 amps at 300 volts, or over 9 kilowatts. The inverter can't handle that kind of wattage. That would power 6 hair dryers or 10 electric frying pans. What you have described is indeed a short circuit -- by design. | |||
| Simon Quellen Field (Sfield) |
You should also be very cautious electrolyzing salt water. The products are hydrogen and deadly chlorine gas, not oxygen. Large amounts of chlorine gas should not be vented to the atmosphere, even outdoors. | |||
| Anonymous |
electrolyzing slat water makes hydrogen and Chlorine gas!!! not hydrogen and oxygen!!! omg I did the whole thing indoors and there was a fair bit of gass coming out of the other terinmal. | |||
| Murat |
so... What can I do I want to produce hidrogen in a fast way | |||
| Simon Quellen Field (Sfield) |
What's the rush? | |||
| Stompie |
Anyone know the ballanced equation for Liquid oxygen/liquid hydrogen Rocket fuel? and/or the ballanced equation for An Oxy/acetylene torch? If so it would be a big help. Thanks! | |||
| Simon Quellen Field (Sfield) |
Are you having trouble figuring out the molar ratio for H2O? Try four moles of H2, and one mole of O2. For simplicity, assume that a mole of H2 weighs 2 grams, and a mole of O2 weighs 32 grams. You then have four grams of H and 32 grams of O, giving an 1 to 8 ratio by weight. A mole of acetylene (H2C2) weighs about 26 grams. After it reacts with oxygen, you have H2O and CO2. You need an oxygen atom for every two hydrogen atoms, and two oxygens for each carbon. So you need 5 oxygen atoms for every acetylene molecule. Since there are two atoms in an oxygen molecule, you need 5 moles of oxygen to burn 2 moles of acetylene. That makes (5 times 32 grams of oxygen) to (2 times 26 grams of acetylene), for a ratio of 160 to 52, or roughly 3 to 1. This is all quickly off the top of my head, so if this is a homework assignment (shame on you!), you should double check both my math and my recollection of masses and formulas. I was wrong once, I could be wrong again someday, and my readers LOVE to correct me when I screw up. | |||
| Anonymous |
What're the resistivities of tap and bottled water, and what are sources for those for other solutions? -Aut (lysdexia) | |||
| Simon Quellen Field (sfield) New member Username: sfield Post Number: 7 Registered: 12-2004 |
Tap water will vary in resistance by location, as the dissolved salts vary. Bottled water is often just bottled municipal tap water. Spring water will also vary, for the same reason. What other solutions were you asking about? | |||
| Anonymous |
those at the extreme ends -Aut | |||
| Simon Quellen Field (sfield) New member Username: sfield Post Number: 49 Registered: 12-2004 |
Those solutions at the extreme end of what? Please ask a complete question, with all of the information needed to answer it. As it is, we have the question "What are the sources for the solutions at the extreme ends?" I have no idea how to answer that. | |||
| lysdexia Unregistered guest |
sources for data for solutions at the extreme ends of resistivity! | |||
| Simon Quellen Field (sfield) New member Username: sfield Post Number: 66 Registered: 12-2004 |
You want sources for superconductors and for good dielectrics? How is that going to help the kids build build hydrolysis cells? I am still not getting what you are talking about. What is your application? | |||
| Anonymous |
can you also use alcohol and other liquids to extract hydrogen out of them? | |||
| Travis Unregistered guest |
I don't know about that. Running an electical current through an alcohol could be explosive. | |||
| Simon Quellen Field (sfield) New member Username: sfield Post Number: 78 Registered: 12-2004 |
I would think the main problem with alcohol would be its conductivity. Hydrogen can be extracted from alcohol chemically, but I am not aware of any attempts to do it electrolytically. | |||
| lysdexia Unregistered guest |
How would they not help them? It's to satisfy my curiosity for dreaming up applications. | |||
| vocasla Unregistered guest |
Interesting. I am wondering whether there is any conducting material you can use for the electrodes that do not dissintegrate and fall apart when used in electrolysis. I heard that platinum doesn't fall apart, but i am not sure. thnx | |||
| Simon Quellen Field (sfield) New member Username: sfield Post Number: 113 Registered: 12-2004 |
Carbon rods are what is usually used. They are cheap, and don't participate in the reactions. | |||
| vocasla Unregistered guest |
i've tried using graphite from pencils, but it still falls apart! hopefully i can extract carbon rods from dead batteries soon  | |||
| Anonymous |
Dear Friends, i tried to generate hydrogen from a modified version of hoffman's apparatus made using 5" PVC pipes. I used Iron electrodes and a 9 volts 1 amp power source. the electrolyte is water and common salt. but it did not generate enough hydrogen to be even used as a small candle. can anyone help me with the process so that i get more amount of hydrogen at a greater pressure ? (atleast 5-10 PSI) | |||
| Prabhu raj Unregistered guest |
Dear Friends, i tried to generate hydrogen from a modified version of hoffman's apparatus made using 5" PVC pipes. I used Iron electrodes and a 9 volts 1 amp power source. the electrolyte is water and common salt. but it did not generate enough hydrogen to be even used as a small candle. can anyone help me with the process so that i get more amount of hydrogen at a greater pressure ? (atleast 5-10 PSI) | |||
| Simon Quellen Field (sfield) New member Username: sfield Post Number: 173 Registered: 12-2004 |
Your power supply can source 1 amp, but that is not what you are actually using. Measure the current in your setup, and read about Ohm's Law. To increase the current, use a higher voltage, or a lower resistance electrolyte, such as an acid. | |||
| Prabhu Raj Unregistered guest |
Dear Mr. Simon, Thanks for your reply to my post. I am using a less resistance iron electrodes. and moreover the voltage accross the electrodes is 7.6v and the current accross the circuit is .9 amps. since i am using a 1.25 feet ht and 4.5 inches dia cylinder with .5mm wall thickness iron as an electrode. but the onething i have not tried is that to use a higher voltage and current power source. i am planning on using a car battery which offers 12 v and 32 amps. after experimenting with this i will get back to u ppl. it is going to take some time. untill then bye. and thanks again Mr. simon for ur help. and one more thing... is there a way to register as a member of this site? if so kindly provide the url. I feel that this site offers quite some knowledge in the feild of science and i really want to be a member. | |||
| Simon Quellen Field (sfield) New member Username: sfield Post Number: 174 Registered: 12-2004 |
You have 7.6 volts at 0.9 amps. The resistance is thus 8.4 ohms, although electrolysis does not exactly follow Ohm's Law. We would predict that at 12 volts you would draw 1.4 amps, which is not a huge improvement. It takes two electrons to split a molecule of water. There are 6.241506×1018 electrons per second in an ampere, so each second at one amp you will get 3.120753 × 1018 hydrogen molecules. There are 2.6 x 1019 molecules of hydrogen in a cubic centimeter at standard temperature and pressure. Dividing the number of molecules per second by the number of molecules per cubic centimeter, we get 0.12 cubic centimeters of hydrogen per second at one ampere. So, to produce 1 cubic centimeter of hydrogen per second, you will want 8.33 amps. If your arrangement has 8.4 ohms, you will need 70 volts. (Ohm's Law again -- assuming that electrolysis acts like a resistor, which is not quite right, but you can experiment to find the right values.) Note that you will be generating some steam as well, and you will want to condense that out. The solar panels in my backyard generate electricity at about 9 cents per kilowatt hour. You are using 583 watts to produce a milliliter of hydrogen each second. You will produce 3.6 liters in an hour, using 0.583 kilowatt hours of electricity, at a cost of 5.24 cents, or 1.45 cents per liter. If you are buying power from a power company, you will double the cost. Hydrogen currently costs about $2 per kilogram. A liter of hydrogen at STP is about 0.086 grams. Thus the commercial price of a liter of hydrogen produced from natural gas is 0.0172.cents. Your production costs are 1.45 / 0.0172, or about 8400 times higher. | |||
| Anonymous |
Hey how why do u put baking soda in an expermient involving three batteries linked together and electrolysis? | |||
| Simon Quellen Field (sfield) New member Username: sfield Post Number: 178 Registered: 12-2004 |
I am not sure which experiment you refer to, but I would guess the sodium bicarbonate is used as an electrolyte. It makes the water conductive. | |||
| Anonymous |
i am having a problem with an electrolysis experiment. i want to seperate to potasium or nitrogen from the substace but would anything percipatate?. i also want to create potassium cloride then clorate but i dont know were to get kcl. plz help. ps SPIDA | |||
| Simon Quellen Field (sfield) New member Username: sfield Post Number: 201 Registered: 12-2004 |
You didn't say what you were starting with, so it is hard to give a direct answer. You will not get nitrogen to precipitate out of water. The best you will get is bubbles. You can melt salt substitute (which is mostly potassium chloride) in a crucible, and use electrolysis to separate potassium and chlorine from the molten salt. Look up "Downs cell" on Google. | |||
| Peter panton Unregistered guest |
tks. but when i place solube plant food in water... stir... i get a blue solution and i set up my electrolysis aparatus i get thick blue stuff how do i harvest things out of electrolysis? and what could you harvest from bleach through electrolysis? | |||
| Simon Quellen Field (sfield) New member Username: sfield Post Number: 202 Registered: 12-2004 |
The blue is most likely a dye, designed to increase sales more than vegetative matter. What you get out of running current through it, I can't tell, since I have no idea what is in the product. The active ingredient in bleach is Sodium Hypochlorite, NaOCl, a simple little molecule with only three elements, Sodium, Oxygen, and Chlorine. I would not run current through it myself, as the nasty products are likely to be Chlorine gas and Hydrogen Chloride gas, both of which are notoriously toxic, in a very uncomfortable way. Don't mess with poison gas. | |||
| Peter panton Unregistered guest |
k i wont mess with bleach but i cant find potassium nitrate to make my smoke bomb. i went to a pharmacy and a guy told me all kinds of shit how to make bommbs but he had no k nitrate (he was indian) duh.lol. but how else could i make potassium nitrate other than filtration from poop and soil? i cant find a florist shop. theres some but they r far from were i live. i heard of mixin kcl into bleach n some other stuff to get potassium clorate but i NEED POTASSIUM NITRATE BADLY! tks. plz help! | |||
| brad tones Unregistered guest |
hi there, ive been doing a lot of thinking about the electrolysis of water, and also done a few experiments at home. One experiment involved a Jet lighter connected to a tank in which electrolysis of water was occuring. The result was a failure, i think the gas needs to be pressureised or something, or the mixture of oxygen and hydrogen were not being produced fast enough. Would it be possible to electrolysis water molecules in the form of a gas? if it were, wouldn't the production from water vapour to hydrogen and oxygen be increased dramatically, because of gases extra energy, i am assuming it would take less energy to split the elements, any way get back to me, thanks | |||
| Anonymous |
if i eletcrolysed sodium hydroxide when it's molten would the sodium produced not react with the oxygen in normal air? | |||
| brad tones Unregistered guest |
yes it would react with normal air, you need to produce it in an atmosphere of an inert gas- nitrogen for example. | |||
| Anonymous |
how exactly to i get an inert gas? would CO2 work? | |||
| brad tones Unregistered guest |
no, co2 is not inert an inert or noble gas is a gas which does not react. Co2 is not inert and im not sure, but i dont think it would be suitable for making sodium becuase it contains oxygen which would readily react with the sodium. im looking around now on how you can filter nitrogen out of the air. | |||
| AnotherAnonymous Unregistered guest |
Nothing is perfectly inert, not even a noble gas: http://www.nus.edu.sg/corporate/research/gallery/research15.htm (Some nobel gasses (Xe and PtF6) can even form room temperature solids, spooky eh?) All you can do is make sure nothing is more reactive than the reaction you are reacting (This is why the isolation of fluorine was so hard). CO2 might work, you just have to make sure the bonds between carbon and oxygen are stronger than those sodium would form. I'd advise argon as the cheapest, can be found at most welding shops. If your needs are small, you could ask (beg) them to fill a few balloons or a garbage bag. You could buy (might have to special order) a 6" x 12" tank that would hold about 25 cubic feet for something like $50-$100, and then get it refilled for $10-$20, or just rent one and return it. Helium might be more expensive, but easier to aquire. Beware: most helium used for filling balloons is actually mixed with oxygen, to prevent suffocation from the He sniffers. Be sure to get welding grade helium. A vacuum might work too, or possibly you could do this experiment in a nonreactive nonconductive liquid, possibly mineral oil. Just be sure keep temperatures below the flash point. | |||
| brad tones Unregistered guest |
now that we got that sorted, does anyone know if water vapour can conduct electricity? ive looked around but cannott find anything on the subject my plan was to perform electrolysis of water but in gaseous state, does anyone have any comments or ideas? | |||
| lysdexia Unregistered guest |
acquire http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&lr=&safe=off&q=%22pure+water+conducts+electricity%22&btnG=Search http://www.iapws.org/relguide/ion.pdf http://www.lsbu.ac.uk/water/explan4.html Anything can conduct electricity. But high heat and pressure done so far only makes it twice as conductive. Just shoot electrons at it by cracking open the TV screen with a 50-pm hole and be done with it. But if you want cheap hydrogen, pass steam over glowing coal. | |||
| lysdexia Unregistered guest |
Oop, that should be twice the log as conductive, or about 100 times. But you don't have access to those conditions... | |||
| brad tones Unregistered guest |
oh, sorry but do u have ne other ideas? i dont think mum would like me breaking the tv....... | |||
| brad tones Unregistered guest |
guess not huh oh well im just gonna forget it and stop being a nerd, gotta start focusing on school work instead of thinking of other stuff, its for the best, start getting out more, rekindle relationships and id just like to say for the record grd 12 sucks. | |||
| josh richardt Unregistered guest |
Simon or anyone, i am an extreme amateur but very interested in creating my own down's cell for the electrolysis of nacl (final quarter chem project). How do-able is making this and what are the dangers involved? Is it possible for me to control the experiment to a safe operating level? Also do you have any links for the construction of a down's cell? Right now I have only seen diagrams and and will probably make a very crude design without some guidance. your help would be greatly appreciated. -josh | |||
| ABCinventor Unregistered guest |
Anyone knows what to add to electrolysis (of water) to decrease its resistance? Base,salt or acid of any kind which is the best?? For your information, i am making hydrogen by hand cranked generator that i buit a few weeks ago. there is a very small current and i have to turn very fast to generate much hydrogen. this is because the electrical-mechanical resistance is too low.. when i hook up the two terminals with a wire, it is very hard to turn the generator. this indicades that the generator is working well! So i wanted to reduce the resistance to speed up electrolysis and i don't have to turn that fast! | |||
| Kyle O. Unregistered guest |
I believe distilled water has the most resistance. So salt makes the water more conductive, so salt lowers the resistance. I'm not sure if lowering the resistance will make more H and O. Give both distilled and salt water a try. Please post the outcome. | |||
| ABCinventor Unregistered guest |
USING SALT IS POISONOUS!!! Just now i was playing with salt solution, performing electrolysis when i smelled chlorine. it has similar smell as bleach. and of course u know that chlorine is poisonous!! using distilled water has so much resistance that no hydrogen is produced when i turn my generator while using salt water(the one i mentioned) can produce about 10 ml per 4 minutes of relaxed turning. well i need to know the best solvent to add so as to increase hydrogen production and not producing harmful substances. also, the more salt i add, the more hydrogen(and chlorine) it can produce. the hydrogen produced when sodium react with water adds to the total hydrogen production. I had also modified my electrolyte from pencil graphite(which breaks often) to carbon-zinc cell graphite. this provides more surface area and more reaction. now its abit more difficult to turn the generator as the electrical-mechanical resistance is increased. | |||
| Anonymous |
ABC, it's safe as long as you do it outside, there's only a small amount of chlorine given off. but, after a few hours of electrolysing it, your nacl(salt) will turn into sodium chlorate, which is a powerful oxidiser and can be used to make high explosives. | |||
| Anonymous |
how would you "bottle" the gasses ? | |||
| ABCinventor Unregistered guest |
collect them in air tight containers such as plastic medicine bottles. store them with some water inside and always let them remain up side down. so that no hydrogen will leak by diffusion. | |||
| Anonymous |
could i make a fuel tank out of a 2 liter botle and surgical tubing | |||
| Simon Quellen Field (sfield) Senior Member Username: sfield Post Number: 263 Registered: 12-2004 |
That should work fine. | |||
| Anonymous |
I’m thinking using electrolysis as a fish tank aerator. What would make good electrodes to use in a fish tank that would bubble oxygen in the water without killing the fish? Would you shock the fish using a 12v sealed lead acid battery is you power source, and would it shock you if you put your hand in the aquarium? Any idea how to hook this up? I know too much oxygen would kill them so it would have to be monitored with an oxygen sensor. | |||
| Simon Quellen Field (sfield) Senior Member Username: sfield Post Number: 374 Registered: 12-2004 |
This sounds like a bad idea to me. It is far cheaper to bubble air through the water than to split water molecules. For every oxygen molecule you create, you create two hydrogen molecules. The combination is explosive. In order to get the same amount of oxygen in the water as a cheap air pump would, you would need to send thousands of times as much current through the water as you would through the pump. And that much current would heat the water to levels the fish would not survive. Moreover, the voltage would have to be quite high, as the fish are in fresh water that is not that good a conductor. High voltage, high current, in water, in a house. Not a good combination. | |||
| Anonymous |
There is currently an aerator product that I think uses electrolysis on the market right now. It works very well and it it sounds like electrolysis to me. Any idea how they do it? This is from their website. Unlike standard aeration systems that pump ambient air (at 20.9% Oxygen) through a diffuser into the water, AI's Pure Oxygen System uses a patented process to create 100% pure oxygen (O2) from the water itself. Incorporating an extremely efficient system, AI's Pure Oxygen Systems separate the water molecules into their elementary parts: Hydrogen and Oxygen. The lighter hydrogen molecule rapidly leaves the water and dissipates into the atmosphere. The heavier oxygen molecule remains suspended until it dissolves into the water. In fact, the O2 bubble is so tiny, it cannot break the surface tension of the water. | |||
| Simon Quellen Field (sfield) Senior Member Username: sfield Post Number: 375 Registered: 12-2004 |
You can sell anything to gullible buyers. Since fish will do just fine without aeration if there is 10 to 20 square inches of surface area for each linear inch of fish, it is quite possible to have a minute bubble of oxygen in the water that does effectively nothing, and still have the fish survive. Suppose you have a dozen guppies in a tank. They are about an inch long, so you need 120 square inches of surface area to get them adequate oxygen. The tank can be as small as 12 inches by 10 inches. Now let's double the number of fish in the tank. We need to have another 120 square inches of surface area. We can get that by bubbling air into the tank, since a bunch of tiny bubbles have a lot of surface area. But if we want to replace the air with pure oxygen, we will need 1/5th as much surface area (24 square inches) since air is only 1/5th oxygen. A bubble of oxygen so tiny that it cannot break the surface tension of water will not get you 24 square inches. People sell ultrasonic mosquito repellers, healing crystals, copper bracelets to cure arthritis, and pyramids to prevent food spoilage. They can do this because people would rather buy the dream than do the math. | |||
| Anonymous |
Very interesting thanks for the info! | |||
| shanmugam Unregistered guest |
i would like to know wether can produce water from hidrogen and oxigen gaseous. is that possible? pls reply to my email . thanks | |||
| Simon Quellen Field (Sfield) Senior Member Username: Sfield Post Number: 420 Registered: 12-2004 |
You can turn on the spelling checker by editing your profile. To make water from hydrogen and oxygen you simply ignite them. If you ignite a stream of hydrogen in air, you get a nice little flame that leaves water vapor as its exhaust. If you mix two volumes of hydrogen with one volume of oxygen and light them, you get a bang, and hot steam. | |||
| Tristan (Tristan) Member Username: Tristan Post Number: 16 Registered: 4-2005 |
Hey, guys. This Thread is getting kinda' long. I can't find any of the right posts! Is there a way to find posts that I don't know about? (Sigh) oh well, I guess I'll just be lost forever in this endless void of posts....(Sob, Sob) ;) | |||
| Simon Quellen Field (Sfield) Senior Member Username: Sfield Post Number: 448 Registered: 12-2004 |
There is a Search link at the upper right hand corner of each page. | |||
| Bobby Unregistered guest |
I just did electroyisys on H2O with NaCl in one container and NaHCO3 in the other! About 1/4 tbs of the material to 1 cup water. Just to let everyone know the Sodium Bicarbonate accelerated the electrolysis a lot! What products does the H20+NaHCO3 yield? I also used a 6V Battery! Any ideas on other cool electrolisys experiments, post'em. Also, why dosen't isopropl alcahol react to electrolisys, so precipitates or anything! Why? | |||
| torresroberto Unregistered guest Posted From: 200.6.211.193 |
I like to know, if someone determinate consume of ampares to produce a gram of sodium hyplochorite | |||
| Goran Popara Unregistered guest Posted From: 195.29.137.48 |
 Is there any chance that something like this could work? | |||
| Goran Popara (Gpopara) New member Username: Gpopara Post Number: 1 Registered: 8-2005 |
 Is there any chance that something like this could work? | |||
| Anonymous Posted From: 203.164.245.142 |
Guys The best results iv found is use 316l grade stainless cones. Use 2 nutreal plates between neg cone and pos cone. The nutreal plates have no current going to them. But you halve the current and create more gas. I filter my water before doing electrolisis. By doing this you get less gunk in the water and current is better. I am doing this for an orgone energy project. Type joe cell into your search engine and check it out. (car runs on water using the joe cell) I have had success with this but still fine tuning. Also to create the best hydrogen from a power supply this is the best option. Use a power supply or make one using pulses. You need at lest 20HZ or 20000 pulses per secound. You can go higher but keep it simple. But get someone to tune the power unit to create the fatest pulses. To run a car with this you only need 5amps to 10 at 12 volt. This creates 20 times more gas than using normal power. Now i can here all you scientific critics knocking at my door. Dont critisice my comments until you try it. I have done it and i have witnessed other projects that work fine doing this concept (pulse frequency) so turn your blinkers off and try it if your half interested. | |||
| Simon Quellen Field (Sfield) Senior Member Username: Sfield Post Number: 658 Registered: 12-2004 |
Five amperes at 12 volts is 60 watts. That's 0.08 horsepower, or about one twelfth of a horsepower. Suppose we assume that the conversion to hydrogen and oxygen is 100% efficient (instead of maybe 80% at best) and that the efficiency of a hydrogen powered internal combustion engine is the upper limit of the Carnot efficiency for a heat engine (a perfect hydrogen/oxygen flame reaches 2760 Kelvin, and room temperature is 273 Kelvin, so the best possible efficiency is about 90%). So about 54 watts (0.07 horsepower) or about a 14th of a horsepower is available to power the car. This is not as bad as it looks, because the gas can be produced for days and stored. A small car optimized for fuel economy, such as the Geo Metro, with a 3 cylinder 1.0 liter engine, has a 55 horsepower engine. While not a rocket at a stop light, this is enough to get around, and can carry 4 passengers up a 6% grade at 50 mph. To run a 55 horsepower engine at full power for an hour would require that we generate hydrogen for about 760 hours, or about a month. But if we don't run at full power, but drive slowly most of the time at 1/10th power, we could drive for an hour on three day's worth of hydrogen. If we drove at 1/10th for only 10 minutes, we would only use half a day's worth. If we plugged the gas generator into the 220 volt clothes dryer socket and drew 30 amps, we would have 6,600 watts to play with (almost 9 horsepower), it would only take about 6 hours to get enough fuel to run full throttle for an hour. If we didn't run full throttle, but instead averaged 9 horsepower, we could produce the hydrogen as fast as we consumed it. But we would not be driving fast enough to use the freeway. As far as pulsing the power, that doesn't help in the slightest. People are easily confused by pulsed power sources because most normal meters assume direct current, or a pure sine wave, and cannot correctly measure other wave shapes. Meters that can properly measure other wave shapes are called "True RMS" meters, and are less common. Pulsed power often gives much higher wattage readings on a common meter than is really there, making people think they are getting more power out of something than they are putting in. If you put 60 watts of DC power into a circuit that produces pulses of current, you can never get more than 60 watts of power out of it, and so you can never get more gas production than a simple DC circuit. It takes two electrons to split a water molecule. That's all you need to know, because it really is that simple. The exact calculations for producing hydrogen from water by electrolysis are shown a little earlier on this page. | |||
| Damien alfa2spa Unregistered guest Posted From: 203.164.245.138 |
mmmmmm........armmmm have you actually tried it or have you just grabed some of the figures from a text book. As i said use nuteral plates between neg and pos plates and this will more than halve the current. (it also increases the hydrogen oxygen) For your self try the experiment first to see how you can halve the current. You can use plates in a series, but i encourage you to try the experiment first and measure the voltage difference. Also have you actually tried this before commenting or got your calculater out. Some of these experiments are outside the scientific barriers and some scientist refuse to believe this because a backyard experimenter discovered it first. Type in your search engine stan meyer and check some of his stuff. As i said before you need fat pulses, 20hz is a start. Dont just grab any power supply that has 50hz writen on it. Have you put in on the isoscope or that silly device to ajust the size of the pulses. If your still not shaw what iv said or understand my comments about nutreal plates ill put some photos on the forum. Also i can show you a curcuit diagram for the power unit | |||
| Anonymous Posted From: 203.164.245.4 |
Simon this theroy you have is good but did you consider try the experiment before getting your textbook. Alot of hydrogen technology invented by backyard inventors gets egnored because scientist didnt think of it first. Alot of my technology comes from that and the crap on the net and in text books is what they want you to know. Now you might disagree with this but over the last 20 years there have been various experiments done with success that dont agree with science theroys. Scientist feal threatened by this because they didnt think of it first.It doesnt apply to thier instructions. I have video evidence from NASA admitting this. Mate the first thing most scientist and experts should do is drop thier blinkers and be very open with new experiments to the fact that not all inventions or discoveries line up with text books and science theroys. Ill give you an example. Iv got a project here called the joe cell. look it up on your search engine and have a read. Now before you all put your barriers up and think it wont work.......well iv got a working unit here. And i know heaps of other Australians who have the same working unit. Now this unit requires 12 volt at 30 amps for 5 min and i can drive on this unit every day providing i do this and can drive all day with just as much power even more than petrol. Now that iv confused you use your search engine and look up orgone energy or zero point energy and have a read. Dont just read the first thing you see. See if you can find stories on people who run cars on this. Now hydrogen is created from this unit and it produces heaps more energy then you give it. But you really need to understand how the unit works before you get excited. A guy in Australia has a company called Nutech. check his stuff out on this to. Now back to maverack. What i have just told you scientist refuse to believe it because they didnt invent it first. So before everyone gets there text book theroys out dont use your blinkers. I will post a video on the forum soon of my working unit on a car. But before the "no it wont work" aditude comes out, try it first. I am actually doing you all a favour by saying this. As for my comments on using 5amps 12volt pulse frequency to create heaps more hydrogen than normal voltage,, if you want i can somehow post the plans on the forum if anyone wants to try it. Same applys with my using nutreal plates theroy between neg and pos to halve the current. Dont be fooled by textbook theroys guys, look iv had this discussion 1000s of times but when i convince people to get of there buts and try it thier jaws drop out of disbelieve. | |||
| Anonymous Posted From: 203.164.245.4 |
sorry about the double up i didnt think the first message went on | |||
| Simon Quellen Field (Sfield) Senior Member Username: Sfield Post Number: 663 Registered: 12-2004 |
So you have this magic device that produces more energy than you put in. How much are you selling your hydrogen for? I expect you're quite wealthy by now. So heaps of Australians are driving all day after running 12 volts at 30 amps into your device for 5 minutes. That 30 watt-hours of energy is enough to power a car all day with better performance than if it were running on gasoline. I expect this means that the electricity for your house is produced by running a generator burning the hydrogen, since paying for electricity when you have free energy would be stupid. And of course you must be selling these things at an enormous rate, since a generator that ran on water would be a terrific seller. How many can you sell me? A gallon of gasoline has 33,530 watt-hours of energy. Running a car that gets 30 miles per gallon at 60 miles per hour for 24 hours takes 48 gallons of gasoline. That is thus 1,609,440 watt-hours of energy. At 11 cents per kilowatt-hour, it would cost me $177.04 to buy that much electricity from the electric company. And it costs you 0.0033 cents to produce it. You must surely be rolling in the cash by now. A liter of hydrogen gas at zero Celsius and atmospheric pressure has 2.7 watt-hours of energy. You are producing 1.6 million watt-hours worth of hydrogen in 5 minutes. That is almost 600,000 liters of hydrogen. 600 cubic meters of hydrogen is quite a bit to produce in 5 minutes (21,051 cubic feet). That's enough to lift over 50 pounds if it were put into a big balloon. That 600 cubic meters of hydrogen is 26,611 moles of hydrogen. That means that in 5 minutes you are completely splitting 426 kilograms of water into hydrogen and oxygen. That's 112 gallons gone in 5 minutes, or 22.5 gallons per minute. A garden hose puts out only 10 gallons per minute, so you must be emptying the tank faster than you can fill it with two hoses running full speed. Send us that video, that would be fun to see. Show us the hydrogen filing a trash bag while you're at it. You can fill 17 30-gallon trash bags per second with the hydrogen you are producing. That would be fun to see. This is all simple arithmetic. Anyone who can use a calculator will conclude that you are not really running your car on the hydrogen you produce using 30 amps at 12 volts for 5 minutes. It has nothing to do with whether a backyard inventor thought of it, or whether scientists feel threatened by some genius who can't find a way to make money after inventing a solution to the world's energy problems. The scientist don't believe you because you aren't telling the truth. | |||
| AnotherAnonymous Unregistered guest Posted From: 64.162.10.224 |
Pardon my french but "PWNED!!11!!eleven!" to use the vernacular. | |||
| Simon Quellen Field (Sfield) Senior Member Username: Sfield Post Number: 664 Registered: 12-2004 |
I don't think I understand that vernacular. But then my French is rather rusty... Can someone clarify the reference? | |||
| AnotherAnonymous Unregistered guest Posted From: 64.162.10.212 |
Sorry, this might clarify: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pwn As in, you "Pwned" him with math. All the kids are using that word these days, it seemed gleefully inappropriate. (see some examples http://images.google.com/images?q=pwned&hl=en&btnG=Search+Images heh, bill murray and peter jackson) Also, the "eleven"... a play on the 1 one would often see instead of an explanation point from bad typers. It eventually became commonplace to mix a bunch of "!" and "1" as if to express/feign strong emotion or hurried typing. As it evolved one would include the word "one" or "eleven" for fun. For you old bbs and usenet users, it is about on par with the ^H just kidding scenario: Some people would misconfigure their terminal, so that instead of backspace sending the appropriate delete character, it would send a ^H addition. Such newbies therefor would end up sending all their backspaces, along with all the text they'd backspaced. A parody of this would be something like "Wow, he sure is a fucking moron^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hnew to the internet." | |||
| Anonymous Posted From: 203.164.245.120 |
Good work simon you can use a calculater and you have your theroys from your lovly text book. Obviously you havnt tried any of these experiments that i offered. No im not wealthy or choose to share this with the media. Others have and have been burned. Use your brains and figure that one before using your calculater. My video will go for 40 mins when it is on the forum. hope you got cable for fast downloading. Ill even give you a calculater to work your theroys out (**** expletive deleted by moderator ***) Im sorry that youv lived a shallow life and havnt discovered out side the boundries of your life. Anyone eles who decides to have a go at my information have the guts to try it first before disagreeing. I am actually doing you a favour. | |||
| Anonymous Posted From: 203.164.245.120 |
***** Very long article not written by the poster deleted here. In the future, if material exists somewhere else already, just point to it, especially if you don't own the copyright. ***** | |||
| Alessandro (Alessandro) Intermediate Member Username: Alessandro Post Number: 36 Registered: 2-2005 |
ok Anonymous, you high detail muli paged document appears all well and true, even possibly plausible in some intanaces but..... .....if what your saying is ture than why are we still here paying $1.20 a litre for gas and not all running cars and houses powered off joe cells? Why isn't anyone selling joe cells on Ebay? Why are you here telling us how to make free energy devices when you could just make one yourself and sell the energy it makes? The simple reason behind this is that device does not work, you can cut and paste all the fictional information you want on this forum but until we see one that functioning, doing what you claim it can do we will not believe you. Sure you can find pictures on the internet, but they are just that, pictures, most of them don't even show the device mounted in a car yet alone working. Also why does your video need to be 40min long? A few mintues will suffice, just show us the cell doing what you claim it can. Or instead just build the cell yourself instead of telling us to do it, As if you had actully built it you wouldn't be here debating that it works. All you have done is posted useless nonsense about a accliamed decive called a joe cell that can produce free energy. You need to provide some evidence that it works in order for us to believe you, instead of posting a document that bascily tells us to forget that laws and just accept that it works. Just my thoughts Ps: sorry for spelling | |||
| Simon Quellen Field (Sfield) Senior Member Username: Sfield Post Number: 665 Registered: 12-2004 |
There seems to be a common set of attributes of people who claim to have invented free energy devices: 1. They have a distain for science and books. 2. They can't figure out how to make money from their device. 3. They attack the critic instead of answering the criticism. 4. They implore the critic to build the device, but never offer a working model, even though they claim it is cheap and easy to create. 5. They can't seem to do arithmetic. Since the poster remains anonymous, I am at a loss to explain his motivation. It seems to be a religion -- a belief system that cannot be proved, but has believers who seek assurance that their beliefs are superior to those of others, and seek converts to demonstrate that superiority. Selling things that don't work on eBay can be difficult. You have the problem of returns, and the rating of the seller would soon drop below the level where anyone would trust them. And then there is the possibility of being arrested for fraud. He hasn't said why he isn't selling electricity, or selling working electric generators that use his device. Why is it that people who make these things are always trying to get the bugs worked out, and can never make any money? But let's look carefully at what he is saying and see if we can ask some questions to clarify: 1. By using neutral plates (unless "nutreal" is not a mispelling) he says his device uses half the current it does without them. This is believable. Ohm's Law allows one to double the resistance to get half the current while using the same voltage. 2. He claims that he is getting 20 times more hydrogen than with "normal power". This is information we can work with. He is using 5 amps at 12 volts, so we know that "normal power" is 60 watts, or one twelfth of a horsepower. Twenty times that is 1200 watts, or 1.6 horsepower. This power is in the form of hydrogen gas, and he has 20 times as much gas as he can produce with 60 watts from ordinary electrolysis. He is presumably using this hydrogen to power an internal combustion engine, modified to use hydrogen. So, some reasonable questions to ask are: 1. How much hydrogen is he producing? 2. How much hydrogen does his engine use per mile at 60 mph? 3. Is he storing the hydrogen, or is he producing it in the car as he needs it? 4. How big is the storage tank, for either the water or the hydrogen? These are pretty simple questions. Let's see if the answers make any sense. | |||
| Marat Orazov (Marat_o) Intermediate Member Username: Marat_o Post Number: 41 Registered: 6-2005 |
He! I love it when they say: "have you actually tried this before commenting or got your calculater out..." well there's nothing bad in denouncing a bunch of rubish and not wasting money and time to see how wrong you, the inventer,are. Beside the point, if you, Sir Anonymous said that when a person jumps of a skyscraper he/she gets superhuman powers and survives the fall, mind you, no cushion on the bottom, a sane person doesnt have to try the experiment to see that you are wrong... | |||
| Anonymous Posted From: 203.164.218.224 |
These users are just retired school kids playing with a glass and some water with salts, big deal anyone can do that. I dont understand how your unit works but there are other units with great mystery that work but people refuse to get out of thier comfort zone and have a go. There are other sites that would apprieate this info more than these school kids. Dont waste your time with them | |||
| AnotherAnonymous Unregistered guest Posted From: 64.162.11.125 |
1. Post impossible perpetual motion idea, say it will revolutionize the world. 2. Retort Simon's mathmatic rebuttal with a cut/paste of several pages of nonesense text you don't understand in an attempt (failed) to confuse Simon (With text like "it makes a gas, composition unknown, it goes pop when I light it"). 3. Refuse to answer very simple questions about the machine. Switch to third person perspective, call Simon's board a haven for kids, tell yourself to post somewhere smarter. 4. Profit! Great business plan. | |||
| Simon Quellen Field (Sfield) Senior Member Username: Sfield Post Number: 667 Registered: 12-2004 |
Ok, here's a more realistic business plan. I will pay $1000 to the first person who can send me a small generator that uses Mr. Anonymous' device, arriving from Australia with a 100 watt light bulb still lit, and continues to light the bulb for another week after arrival. It must use only the hydrogen produced from water by the device. The light bulb must use at least 100 watts of electrical energy. You can use as much water as you like. Another $1000 will go to the first person to drive to my house in a car powered by such a device, using only the hydrogen produced as fuel, starting from any location in San Diego (more than a tank of gas away from my house near San Jose). To make it easier for folks in Australia to make money from all of their cars running on water, I will offer another $1000 for a video tape from a local commercial television station showing the car driving a local college physics professor non-stop for a distance of 500 miles or more, using only water as fuel. The television reporter should be well known to local audiences and the professor must have published three peer reviewed papers in national or international journals, and both must swear that the car did not stop, and that to the best of their knowledge it used only water for fuel. Easy money. Put up or shut up. As for retired school kids, it would seem that there are four classes of people: 1. People who never went to school. 2. People who never went to school as kids. 3. People who are still in school. 4. People who used to be in school, but are now retired from school into some other occupation. I see nothing wrong with being in the latter group when it comes to understanding physics or knowing when I am being conned. | |||
| Michael Anderson (Pivot_enabled) New member Username: Pivot_enabled Post Number: 1 Registered: 9-2005 |
Simon, What a great site! I've just come across this site and have been reading down the posts in this forum. Reseting the circuit breakers in my parent's house was a nearly daily occurance when I was young (until I learned that a dummy load would prevent the problem). I can't imagine what sort of trouble I might have gotten into (or prevented ) if I had had a resource like this available! I love the candor with which you answer questions which, to the casual observer, might seem crazy. Anyone who spends any time at this site will gain an education whether they intended to or not. I am also impressed by the intelligence of most of the posters. I just want to say Great Job! | |||
| Duluth27whiteMale (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted From: 12.23.138.4 |
thanks for the info, I always wondered if you can provide hydrogen to drive, when you drive.... now I know thats it is Not true! when you do the figures, you can clearly see it is impossable, to be 100% effecient. I do maybe beleave you may add a little "very little" more mpg.. I have a 97 geo metro 3cyl and wanted to build somthing just to give me a little boost, dose anyone know how? That really work? | |||
| Angus Chalmers (Fungus) Junior Member Username: Fungus Post Number: 6 Registered: 12-2005 |
Can I note that with electrolysis if you use carbon electrodes, my teacher told me that carbon dioxide comes off instead of oxygen. | |||
| Simon Quellen Field (Sfield) Senior Member Username: Sfield Post Number: 858 Registered: 12-2004 |
To prove to your teacher that what is coming off the carbon electrode is oxygen, simply collect it into a test tube. Then light a match, and blow out the match. Stick the glowing match into the tube of oxygen. It will burst into flame. If you try the same thing with a tube of carbon dioxide, the match will not re-ignite. The carbon rods are not consumed, so there is no carbon dioxide produced. You get oxygen. | |||
| Angus Chalmers (Fungus) Member Username: Fungus Post Number: 12 Registered: 12-2005 |
By the way, I've seen this website that claims to have a hydrogen conversion for cars. It's actually quite modest with it's claims(2 days electrolysing for one tank) but I think it's genuine. the website is; http://www.switch2hydrogen.com/h2.htm. It claims to be able to run off 400 watts of solar panels as well. | |||
| Boslek (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted From: 24.154.79.216 |
I'm in early middle school working on my first science fair. I found an experiment in a book to show that water actually does have two parts hydrogen to one part oxygen. I've tried this by setting up a beaker with two test tubes, copper wire into each from positive and negative terminals on a 6V battery. I've tried it three ways: tap water and salt, distilled water and salt, and tap water and distilled vinegar. I've managed to produce plenty of hydrogen but no oxygen. In the first two cases I get visible evidence of oxygen combining with other elements. The copper wire appears corroded and the water turned blue. In the final case, there is no visisble sign of what happened to the oxygen. Is there any way to set this experiment up so that I accumulate twice as much hydrogen in one test tube as oxygen in the other. Will oxygen accumulate in the other test tube, or will it always combine with other elements? | |||
| Simon Quellen Field (Sfield) Senior Member Username: Sfield Post Number: 920 Registered: 12-2004 |
If the oxygen is dissolving in the water, you can try continuing the electrolysis until there is no water left in which it can dissolve. Using platinum electrodes will prevent the oxygen from combining with the metal -- no corroded copper and no blue water. Our platinum coated nickel wire will work, just make sure the ends are not in the water, since the ends will have nickel exposed. Salt water will make chlorine and oxygen instead of pure oxygen. | |||
| Arthur Yip (Peregrineay) Member Username: Peregrineay Post Number: 18 Registered: 4-2005 |
Hello! This refers back to Simon's February 5, 2003 post and diagram (2nd post of this thread). If the tubes are closed, the gases push the water down, right? How much pressure (and any possible way to measure it) would you need to keep the gas in the tube? Sorry I am only a grade 11 high school student, I am not sure how much pressure the hydrogen would make. Because pressure is force/area, and the force, by Newton's 2nd, would be gravity?, does that mean that the mass of hydrogen produced would be proportional to pressure pushing down on the water inside the tube? Then how deep do I need to put the tubes to exert enough outside pressure so that the hydrogen becomes pressurized (assuming that I've closed the other end of the tube well enough!)? Thanks Simon for the wonderful forum and site. (Message edited by peregrineay on February 5, 2006) | |||
| Simon Quellen Field (Sfield) Senior Member Username: Sfield Post Number: 998 Registered: 12-2004 |
The hydrogen will always be pressurized to at least one atmosphere to start with. If you had enough hydrogen in a tube to push the water down 32 feet, you would have two atmospheres of pressure. You can interpolate or extrapolate as you wish for any other pressure you wish. Look up the Ideal Gas Law. You are displacing water. It is the weight of the water that is causing the pressure. | |||
| Arthur Yip (Peregrineay) Intermediate Member Username: Peregrineay Post Number: 22 Registered: 4-2005 |
I am wondering how much water to use to exert enough pressure to stop the hydrogen from pushing water down, and to confine produced hydrogen to a limited space (the closed end of the tube). Is this possible? The Ideal Gas Law states that a mole of ideal gas will be 22.4 L in volume at STP, so if electrolysis is producing more and more moles, how do I control volume so that it remains a constant? | |||
| Arthur Yip (Peregrineay) Intermediate Member Username: Peregrineay Post Number: 24 Registered: 4-2005 |
I am also wondering where you got 32 feet. Do you mean 32 feet below sea level? As you might be able to tell, I am confused! heh. | |||
| Simon Quellen Field (Sfield) Senior Member Username: Sfield Post Number: 1007 Registered: 12-2004 |
If you have a column of water that is 1 square inch in cross section, how far up would you have to fill it to have 15 pounds of water? You are a smart fellow. You can figure this out. You can look up how much water weighs. | |||
| Arthur Yip (Peregrineay) Intermediate Member Username: Peregrineay Post Number: 25 Registered: 4-2005 |
0.5 inch (0.04 feet) x 0.5 inch (0.04 feet) x 3.1415926535... x N feet x 62.4 lbs of water per cubic foot = 15 lbs of water? I got 48 feet. Sorry if I got anything wrong, I am more used to working with metric units, where 1 mL of water = 1 g of water! Could you also answer the previous question, Simon? About how to keep volume constant? I am trying to hold volume, pressure and temperature constant, because the amount of particles in moles would be increasing in electrolysis. | |||
| Simon Quellen Field (Sfield) Senior Member Username: Sfield Post Number: 1012 Registered: 12-2004 |
One cubic inch of water weighs 0.036127 pounds. Atmospheric pressure is about 14.7 pounds per square inch. Dividing 14.7 by 0.036127 gives you about 34 feet. Salt water is a little denser, so in the ocean the number comes out to about 32 feet, which was the number I was remembering. In metric units, atmospheric pressure is 101.325024 kilopascals. I doubt that you or most readers would find the metric calculation to be a lot easier, not only because you need to remember the acceleration of gravity is 9.8 meters per second per second, but because there are more terms in the calculation. At least the Google calculator helps you keep all the units straight! As to your second question, you can't keep the volume, pressure, and temperature constant while adding molecules. But you knew that, because you have memorized the Ideal Gas Law. | |||
| Arthur Yip (Peregrineay) Intermediate Member Username: Peregrineay Post Number: 26 Registered: 4-2005 |
ooooops again... of course you can't have all three variables constant... Since a picture can be worth a thousand words,
To achieve Figure 2, my guess is that you add more water (see the ? and blue line) to increase the weight of the water the gas has to overcome to push. But how much? | |||
| Simon Quellen Field (Sfield) Senior Member Username: Sfield Post Number: 1014 Registered: 12-2004 |
The Ideal Gas Law lets you calculate the pressure. Say you are doubling the number of molecules of gas. To keep the volume constant, you will have to double the pressure. Since the pressure is caused by the height of the water, you will have to double that height. | |||
| Jamala Somebody (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted From: 69.159.83.90 |
i am doing a science fair project and i was wondering how can you tell if something is positivly or negitivly charged.please get back to me as soon as posible | |||
| Simon Quellen Field (Sfield) Senior Member Username: Sfield Post Number: 1026 Registered: 12-2004 |
Bring something with a known charge close to it, and see if it is attracted or repelled. Charge an electroscope with a known charge, and see if the new object discharges the electroscope, or charges it further. | |||
| Bert Ernest (Long_bow8) New member Username: Long_bow8 Post Number: 1 Registered: 2-2006 |
Could u measure the current flow of electrolysis in water, salt water, vinegar? If yes, tell me how to measure it. Tell me stuff about the importance of electrolysis. | |||
| Simon Quellen Field (Sfield) Senior Member Username: Sfield Post Number: 1095 Registered: 12-2004 |
Set your multimeter to read current (amperes or milliamperes). Connect it in series with the battery. Read the current from the meter. We can help with little details like that, Researching the importance of electrolysis is part of the project you are supposed to do yourself. | |||
| Bert Ernest (Long_bow8) New member Username: Long_bow8 Post Number: 2 Registered: 2-2006 |
I have problems with materials. tell me list of items that can measure the current flow during the process of electroylsis i don't want to waste my allowance on an object that cost $50 or more to measure the current flow of electrolysis. | |||
| Bert Ernest (Long_bow8) New member Username: Long_bow8 Post Number: 3 Registered: 2-2006 |
I need a list of 9-10th grade project ideas of water electrolysis | |||
| Angus Chalmers (Fungus) Intermediate Member Username: Fungus Post Number: 48 Registered: 12-2005 |
You could figure out the current using ohms law.This wont be exact because there are many variabes. For example, water without anything added has a resisitivity of 181,800 ohms per metre. That is 1,818 ohms for a gap of a centimetre. Ohms law states that I(current)=V(voltage)/R(resistance).This means that you will get a current of around 0.00660066007, about 6 milliamps with pure water at 12v. You can boost the current by having a higher voltage, for example at 120 volts for pure water you will have 0.0660066007, about 66 milliamps. You can also lower the resistivity of water by adding a weak acid. Tap water will probably have a lower resistance already and you can also shorten the gap between the electrodes and/or have larger electrodes (Message edited by fungus on March 4, 2006) | |||
| Angus Chalmers (Fungus) Advanced Member Username: Fungus Post Number: 51 Registered: 12-2005 |
Although, I have measured 2.5 to 3 amps of current from a 12v using caustic soda as an electrolyte in a film canister. Be really careful with this stuff as it is very corrosive. I could make a very loud bang lighting the hydrogen in a container after less than 2 minutes. | |||
| James Lee (Necrofear) Member Username: Necrofear Post Number: 20 Registered: 8-2006 |
Angus you are absolutely correct! i tried this once and my mom almost killed me the bang was so loud! | |||
| James (Magnets) Advanced Member Username: Magnets Post Number: 51 Registered: 6-2006 |
Hehe I tried to put both the oxygen and hydrogen in the sam container and light it, but the "explotion" was more of a pop. I think it had something to do with putting salt with the oxygen, I think Simon said it forms Chlorine not oxygen.. | |||
| Simon Quellen Field (Sfield) Senior Member Username: Sfield Post Number: 1449 Registered: 12-2004 |
Oxygen dissolves better in water than hydrogen. So unless you run the electrolysis until there is little water left, there will not be a perfect 2:1 ratio of the two gases. | |||
| James Lee (Necrofear) Intermediate Member Username: Necrofear Post Number: 40 Registered: 8-2006 |
Simon how does oxygen dissolve in water???? | |||
| Simon Quellen Field (Sfield) Senior Member Username: Sfield Post Number: 1457 Registered: 12-2004 |
The same way anything else does. Many gases dissolve easily in water. Carbon dioxide dissolved in water gets you carbonated water. Ammonia gas dissolved in water gets you window cleaner. | |||
| James (Magnets) Advanced Member Username: Magnets Post Number: 61 Registered: 6-2006 |
"Oxygen dissolves better in water than hydrogen. So unless you run the electrolysis until there is little water left, there will not be a perfect 2:1 ratio of the two gases." yea but still simon even if there is not a perfect 2:1 ratio I would think that i would have gotten a louder pop. "Ammonia gas dissolved in water gets you window cleaner." Windex? | |||
| tony wallace (Synthetiklone) New member Username: Synthetiklone Post Number: 2 Registered: 8-2007 |
visit my site www.pulse8.i8.com/h2o.htm Most electrolysers described on the web are based on a U shaped tube, this is good for visual descriptions and a quick lab setup, but very poor and innefficient in reality. I provide a better and simpler solution. Please if anyone continues my experiment, keep in touch, as I have not had the time to test my last design thoroughly. sorry about the popups the free web provider sends at you please read the whole page, esp the very last part!!! copy, save it to your pc and enjoy and share this info. if you copy it to a new public web page - simply acknowledge synthetiklone as the author and let me know the url where it is at synthetiklone@yahoo.co.nz cheers tony (now, on to read the rest of this thread!) |
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